Episode 4 Podcast > Full Transcript
Nicole Witt, Greeting:
Hi, listeners, welcome back to Adopting! The Podcast. As always, I'm so excited to be your host for this journey. I'm Nicole Witt, Executive Director of The Adoption Consultancy. We guide pre-adoptive parents, step by step, through their adoption journey.
In Adopting! The Podcast, we're going to focus on the issues, questions and concerns you have as you get started in your adoption journey. This is for people just considering, brand new to or early in the process, who are trying to get their questions answered and figure out their best path forward. Also, people who are trying to just learn about what to expect and how the process works.
Nicole Witt, Intro:
If you've been following along in our series, I'm going to assume that if you had started with medical fertility treatment, that you've made the decision to transition from medical treatment to adoption. You've learned about some of the most common adoption myths and you've learned about the proper language to use when speaking about adoption. But that all brings you to a really big decision point: What kind of adoption is right for you?
There are three main types of adoption to consider. First is domestic newborn adoption. For the sake of today's podcast, we're going to include agency adoption, attorney adoption and independent adoption; all under that category. There are some nuances between those three approaches and they can vary based on state law. We’ll likely dig into those in a future episode, but for today's purposes, we'll consider them to be one.
The second type of adoption we’ll be talking about is adoption out of the foster care system, often referred to as foster adoption. And the third is inter-country or international adoption. We're going to cover the major areas in which these three types of adoption differ, as well as where they are similar.
So, our goal is to help you make an informed decision about the path that is right for you rather than a decision based on myth and hearsay.
To help me present this information to you, I'm honored to have two very distinguished guests. First, I'd like to welcome Nicole Moore, who is a Board Certified Adoption Attorney with the Law Offices of Jeanne T. Tate.
Nicole Ward Moore is a, like I said, Board Certified Adoption Attorney. She manages and operates the Orlando Office of the Law Offices of Jeanne Tate. She has been practicing with the firm since opening the Orlando office in 2005.
Nicole practices exclusively in the area of adoption law throughout the state of Florida and in conjunction with out of state placements. She represents adoptive parents and represents several adoption agencies and private adoption placements. Nicole specializes in adoption interventions as her passion centers around getting children out of the broken foster care system and to their forever family.
Nicole is also a member of the prestigious Academy of Adoption and Reproduction Attorneys, the Florida Adoption Council, the Orange County Bar Association and the Florida Bar.
Nicole Witt:
Welcome Nicole. Thanks for joining us.
Nicole Ward Moore:
Thank you so much for having me.
Nicole Witt:
I am also thrilled to have with us Susan Meisel Levin. She's the Owner/Principal at Susan Meisel Levin, P.A. which is a boutique law practice located in Miami, Florida. She is a Florida Bar Board Certified in adoption law, holds a Master’s degree in intercultural human rights, and her practice is devoted to adoption and dependency law, as well as the intersection between adoption law and immigration.
She assists families and adoption agencies with the intercountry adoption process and is one of the few practitioners in the United States who is well versed in both incoming and outgoing Hague Convention adoptions. Thanks so much, Susan, for being here.
Susan Meisel Levin:
My pleasure. Thank you, Nicole.
Nicole Witt:
So, let's jump in. There are several categories where these three types of adoption differ significantly. Sometimes people find that just one or two of them are there deciding factor or factors and nothing else matters nearly as much.
One of those that I find is the age of the child. And with private domestic adoption, we're almost always talking about newborns, although every now and again, a slightly older child is placed privately. And I find that with many of my clients, this is the sole deciding factor of which type of adoption to pursue because it's generally the only way to adopt a newborn.
Nicole, do you want to talk a bit about the ages of the children that tend to get placed from foster care?
Nicole Moore:
Absolutely.
So, there's two ways that an adoptive family can adopt for foster care. One is the traditional way of identifying a file that has been deemed as ready for adoption and reaching out {indistinct 4:43} might be to have an adoption mainly to see if you would be a good match. That typically involves children, the age of six years old and over, all the way up to 15.
The other way that people adopt through the foster care system by a mechanism of intervention. Intervention is based on the {indistinct 5:06} 63 of the Florida Statute. It allows the private entity to intervene in a dependency case to remove a child from the foster care system and place that child privately.
And the intervention that I handle, I typically see children anywhere from three months to three years old.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay, great.
And Susan, what's the typical age for a child who's adopted from another country into the US? I mean, I'm sure it ranges by which country.
Susan:
Typically, children are adopted through intercountry adoption, tend to be over two years of age and upwards of eight to 10 years old. The reasons for this is because the intercountry adoption process can take a few years to get going. And the children who are now currently available to be adopted through intercountry adoption are older children, children with special needs and children who are part of a sibling group.
So, it is possible sometimes to still be able to adopt a very young child, and by that I mean under two years of age, so long as that child is part of a sibling group.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay, great.
So, another key factor is whether or not the adoptive parents want to be gender specific. With private adoption, that can significantly increase wait times because for one, many expectant moms don't know the gender of the baby they're carrying at the time they choose a family. And even though if they do know the gender, there are a variety of reasons why they may not be comfortable choosing a family who is gender specific. Of course, with foster adoption and intercountry adoption, the child's gender is known because they've already been born.
Can you both comment on the impact, if any, on the process of if the adoptive parents are gender specific? Does that significantly impact their wait time or change the process significantly in any other way?
Nicole Moore:
I would say that it matches what you have said in that any adoptive parent adopting any mechanism would increase their wait if they were more specific as per gender or age or any other categories that you could be specific on.
I think that through the foster system, you certainly can be specific, but again, it might be longer the wait.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. And Susan, how about with intercountry adoption?
Susan:
I would agree with all the previous comments. And I want to add one thing that's important in understanding an intercountry adoption. A private person cannot go forward with an intercountry adoption without using an accredited agency who, under federal law and regulations, has been approved to provide intercountry adoption services.
And so, sometimes what we see are cases where families on their own, through contacts, friends, relatives, the Internet, have identified a family in another country for whose child they want to adopt. And sometimes they identify this family when the mother in the foreign country is pregnant.
{indistinct 8:32} what they find, and to their surprise, is that before they can actually go forward with that adoption, they have to be home study ready, they have to work with an accredited agency in the United States, and be approved on the other side by a program in a country or the central authority of that country for that match to be made.
And that's one of the reasons that intercountry adoption takes a long time and why any additional parameters that a prospective adoptive parent would have put on the process would only increase that time even longer.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay, thanks for that.
And that's a perfect segue into talking about a time frame, because that's something that is often super important to hopeful adoptive parents. With private domestic adoption, the overall time frame is pretty unpredictable. You never know when you're going to match or how far along in her pregnancy an expected mom might be at that time. Although, your agency or consulting can give you general guidelines.
I can share what I see. But since I got my clients in a multiagency approach, our timelines are often a bit shorter than that of any one particular agency. Of course, there are exceptions to every rule.
Almost all of my clients adopt a newborn domestically in less than 12 months; our average being about six months. But what are you seeing regarding typical timelines in foster adoption and international adoption?
Nicole Moore:
So, the foster care system, I think everything is delayed. Unfortunately, it's a state run system with a ton of cases and not enough people to work them. So, I know that the private adoption calendar, working with a private attorney or a private agency, can move along and schedule things much quicker than the dependency calendar.
And so, I think that in addition to taking the 10 weeks for classes that are needed to be approved for adoption from foster care, you also wait anywhere from a year to several years’ time for a match.
People that are considering adopting for foster care should understand that the reason these children are available for adoption is because there has been a trial that determined the birth parents had neglected, abandoned or abused children. So, my advice would be to do a lot of research as to what that means to the other family members in the family unit, especially on this program.
I think adoption from foster care really does that {indistinct 11:24} that don't have all those programs or perhaps have other children adopted from the system.
When we're talking about intervention, you're looking at the same timeline as private adoption. And that when you fill out your application to wait with an agency, you can say that you're open to adopting an older child, i.e. not an infant, through intervention. And when those situations come up, then private agencies then can contact those families that are open to it.
The difference is once they're identified and the intervention starts, it can be done in early as 90 days, whereas the foster care calendar is much more delayed.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay.
And Susan, what about intercountry?
Susan:
An intercountry adoption is most likely going to take somewhere between two and four years, realistically. One of the reasons for this is that the intercountry adoption world is divided into two. There are countries who are signatories to The Hague Convention on Intercountry Adoption, and those cases go through The Hague process.
To be able to go through The Hague process, the United States government has to be involved in reviewing the prospective adoptive parent to not only say that their home study is approved, but also to be given governmental approval on the federal level that they are eligible to adopt and bring a child home, immigrating to the United States.
The same thing also happens on the other track, which is called The Orphan Route. And those adoptions are from countries that have not become signatories to The Hague Convention. So, the non-Hague cases sometimes can happen a little bit faster than The Hague cases because there are more layers of regulation on The Hague side that have to be accounted for before a match can be made and an adoption can go forward.
Nicole Witt:
Okay.
And those timeframes; have they been pretty steady over the last several years or have you seen a big change in those relatively recently?
Susan:
Well, the time frames have stayed about the same. You could never really expect to do it intercountry adoption in less than a year to two years, just because you're working with governments and agencies in other countries. But now, of course, given the Covid pandemic and the inability for folks to travel.
There's also been a lot more regulations that have come forth in the United States that regulate the agencies that do intercountry adoptions. Therefore, many of those agencies in the United States have decided that it's no longer financially feasible to continue to offer intercountry adoption services.
So, as the numbers of agencies who are keeping active programs in intercountry adoption declines, then the timeframes do take longer because there are less agencies available to process those applications on behalf of US families.
Nicole Witt:
Gotcha. Yeah, that makes sense. Okay.
Now, obviously a big area of concern for potential adoptive parents is how much information they're going to know about the child's medical background, as well as the medical and social history of the potential birth parents.
With domestic adoption, there's usually some background medical information. Often, it's extensive. There's usually more information on the birth mother than the birth father. A lot of that is self-reported, though, at least in the beginning until they can get her to some doctor’s appointments. The adoptive parents will usually get some written medical records, although those can often take a little while to get.
They will also receive observations from the placing agency or attorney’s caseworker that may be attending doctor's appointments with the potential birth mom; if she's open to that. Obviously, with both foster adoption and intercountry adoption, the child is older, so they have their own medical history.
Can you tell us what that looks like in terms of what the potential adoptive parents can expect to receive?
Nicole Moore:
I would say that it's the same law pertaining to the disclosure of any {indistinct 16:17} and locatable information. So, if you adopt through foster care or even for intervention, you should have the same medical personal history as you would through a domestic infant adoption. And that {indistinct 16:35} duty for the entity that places to provide everything and anything that they can actually get their hands on.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay.
And Susan, with intercountry, do you want to jump in on that?
Susan:
Sure.
So, the same type of disclosures and requirements exist also in intercountry adoption. In addition, what adds a little bit of difficulty to this is that the information on the child is often in another language; that's in the country where the child is coming from.
And as opposed to a foster care adoption, where that information is within the state system and one can access it; doctors reports, medical reports, there's oftentimes less information that's available internationally and there's less ability to verify that information.
So, sometimes it's difficult to know exactly what has transpired in the life of a child who is the object of an intercountry adoption, because depending on the age of the child and the records that were kept either by the orphanage or the agency that's in charge, we have a lot less control over that. And so therefore, there are training requirements that are more rigorous for parents going through intercountry adoption to be {indistinct 18:04} in and willing to accept certain medical conditions or accept the fact that they may not know the full history behind the child.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay.
And I always tell people, regardless of which type of adoption, it's important to realize, I think, going in that no matter how much information you have, you'll always want more. You can have stacks and stacks of medical records and you'll always have some unanswered questions. There's always some element of a leap of faith, I would say, with that,
Susan:
Nicole, if I might, I would agree with that. And I would also like to point out that in the intercountry adoption realm, a lot of times, clients are folks who share an ethnic or religious background with the children from the countries from which they wish to adopt. And because of that, they are oftentimes driven to adopt a child from that country because they would also like to continue their own heritage with a child who becomes part of their family.
And so oftentimes, the background or history of the child, other than to see that that child is a member of that cultural, ethnic or religious group, takes a back seat to the importance of the continuity of care that they want to give to a child to raise that child within the same {indistinct 19:34} that that child is coming from.
So, sometimes the issue is regarding the background or health or concerns about the child are less important to a family who's considering intercountry adoption.
The same also is true because oftentimes intercountry adoption cases attract folks who are working more on a missionary level and wanting to not just build a family by adding a child into their home, because of their desire to parent and have a family, but they also see it as a greater mission to be able to provide a home for an orphan or a child from another country who would be in need and will not be adopted through that country’s own child welfare system.
Nicole Moore:
I would agree with that. And I think that a lot of adoptive parents that I speak with, if they are searching for someone with their same ethnic background, and we cannot guarantee that through a private domestic waiting list, they look for international adoption.
Likewise, I wanted to share that for adoptive parents that really want the most whole medical background as possible, I think your best bet is to go with domestic adoption. And if you're open to having a more open relationship with the birth mother, I see many, many birth mothers that invite adoptive mother or the adoptive parents to her prenatal visit, and they attend every prenatal visit, attend the delivery. It is, though, they're receiving the medical care themselves.
Nicole Witt:
That's a good point. And Susan, you also brought up an interesting point about this concept of if it's an important motivator for the adoptive parents to adopt a child in need, who wouldn't otherwise have whatever they can provide.
I think that's what intercountry or foster adoption makes more sense. Because with private domestic adoption, there are a lot more people looking to adopt than there are babies available. So, it's not like those children aren't going to get adopted if the adoptive parents don't pursue that route. But that could be with the other two routes. So, if that's an important motivator for them, that's certainly something to consider as well.
Susan:
Nicole, I have another point to add here.
Nicole Witt:
Sure.
Susan:
And I talk to a lot of lot of parents who come forward thinking that they want to do an intercountry adoption or they come forward thinking that they want a newborn child, but then they want to have a tremendous amount of control over the background of the child and the pregnancy and the medical care and medical records.
And what I always tell these folks when they're just starting a process, which may be a lot of the people who are listening to this podcast today, is that when you enter the world of parenting, you find out really quickly that you are not in control.
Nicole Witt:
Right.
Susan:
And depending on the person's individual makeup and need for control, I sometimes tell folks, “Look, if you can't let go of the amount of control that you want to have on this process, you're going to be very uncomfortable the whole way through.”
And if finances are not an issue. I recommend that they call someone who can help them with surrogacy. Because in the surrogacy world, and although that's outside of the scope of what we're talking about today, if there are people listening on this podcast who are really adamant about having control over the process and knowing all of the unknowns, that's their better bet, because by contract, they're able to delineate what's going to happen more.
And it's not a positive and it's not a negative. It's sort of like starting with know thyself. And if thyself needs to control it, thyself is going to have a hard road in front of them in these processes, unless they're willing to let go.
Nicole Witt:
Right. That's a very important point. Thank you for bringing that up.
So, another area of concern that people have that's kind of tied to control or a lack of control is this fear of, you know, you always hear people say, “Is the birth mom going to show up on my doorstep?” or “Is she going to come and reclaim the child years down the road?” And of course, that terrifies them.
So, we've talked about this in a previous episode as relates to private domestic adoption and how from a legal perspective, that's just not how it works. And that's generally not a fear that people should have.
But can you guys chime in on that topic as relates to foster and intercountry adoption, these fears that the adoptive families have about the birth family's involvements and legal rights even after the adoption is finalized?
Nicole Moore:
I hear that as the number one fear for most of the adoptive parents that I cater for. And I let them know there are many things that {indistinct 25:04 - 07} is not one of them.
Children are not even available for adoption until the rights of the birth parents are legally and appropriately terminated. So, no matter what kind of adoption you're talking about, an adoptive family cannot adopt a child that is not legally available for adoption. To be legally available, the rights of the birth parents must have been legally terminated.
Now, a caveat I would say as a warning for you to have as a prospective adoptive family to be careful of is when you're in that situation where the birth mother who is going to voluntarily sign her consent, she has a two-year period to prove that her consent was taken under {indistinct 26:00}. And often they try to prove that when an adoptive family gives them money.
So, one of the best ways to protect yourself as an adoptive family is to have any of the money and living expenses that is vetted through an attorney for the agency and paid by them to, number one, make for their legal expenses, and number two, to dispel any arguments that you were enticing a birth mother's signature.
Nicole Witt:
Yeah, excellent point. Susan, what about with intercountry?
Susan:
Well, that's one of the areas where intercountry adoption does offer an advantage over foster care or private adoption is because the parents of the children are very, very far away. And it's going to be the country laws in the country that have terminated the rights of those biological parents for that child to be eligible and appropriate for adoption, just as the same as is done here.
I will point out that with 23andme and ancestry.com and all of those services that are now available for folks to trace back their heritage, there is always the chance that as the child gets older or these tests are run, that the child is going to identify his or her country of origin and want to have contact with the biological parent.
In intercountry adoption, the likelihood of that happening is going to decrease based on the distance between the two countries. But it does happen. And that sort of touches on a different topic, which is the amount of communication and contact that an adoptive family agrees to have with the biological parents. And once the child's coming out of the foster care system, which Nicole can discuss more fully, the parents’ rights are terminated. So, they're not going to be having that initial contact with the birth parent to be discussing ahead of time what the sides agree on.
They may be in that situation in the foster care system if they were fostering that child, knew the birth parents and then moved on to adopt a child that they had been fostering.
{indistinct 28:34} intercountry adoption case, the child's not going to come to the United States until all of those rights are terminated. And then the amount of contact and information that the adoptive family is required to give goes actually to the country or to the agency in the country under post-adoption reporting requirements and doesn't go directly to the biological parents because what the biological parents are entitled to know tends to be a lot less under intercountry adoption law than under US law. So, it's usually handled just with the agency or the central authority of that country.
Nicole Moore:
And I think that Susan brings up a good point about openness. And I know that {indistinct 29:20} that you wanted to cover today. And there's much more room for openness in an infant adoption. Whereas in foster care, they actually will not get the names or any information about the birth parents because that will be treated as confidential information.
Whereas in the infant world, they can share their first and last name, if they wish. And like I said, previously they can even invite the adoptive family into their doctor appointment or into their life. You have much more opportunity to have open adoption when you're dealing with an agency or attorney versus foster care, which would be a closed adoption most of the time.
Nicole Witt:
Okay, yeah. And that was definitely an important point for us to cover today. So, I'm glad that you guys brought that up.
Just to kind of wrap that up in terms of how that looks with domestic adoption. Usually these days, most adoptions start off as what I refer to as semi open; everybody uses the terms a little bit differently. But that's where there's not necessarily that disclosure of identified information and where a lot of the ongoing updates and pictures go through the agency or the attorney that did the placement.
A lot of people are more fearful of fully open, of sharing some of that information, but those adoptions, when they're fully open, they tend to be ones that have sort of naturally evolved to there; versus everybody jumping in and agreeing to that before they really sort of know who each other is.
But either way, they're usually some channels of communication to find out more about the child's background or medical history as those needs arise. And there are studies that show that it's really healthy for the child to have those channels of communication available to them, whether or not they choose to make use of them when they get older. So, those are definitely some differences there.
Here's a big one.
Susan:
Can I?
Nicole Witt:
Oh, sure. Go ahead.
Susan:
I wanted to add something that's important to your families who are listening. I often am brought it on an intercountry adoption case that wasn't started in the correct manner. So, what happens is a family, through their own contacts, or just out of a desire, goes to another country, participates in adoption in adoption in that country, adopts the child, and then only finds out later that they cannot bring that child home to the United States because they did not follow the appropriate intercountry adoption process.
So, it's counterintuitive sometimes to people that they have to start their process here in the United States, then move forward to an adoption there.
But I spend a lot of time in my practice cleaning up cases where the child was adopted in the foreign country, the family comes back, and they cannot get the child, who is legally their child, and who has no parents in their own country back home to the United States.
So, I offer a word of caution: regardless of what you're told in the country of origin of the child, if you want to have a successful litigation, problem-free adoption of a child born in another country, start your process {indistinct 33:00}.
Nicole Witt:
Okay, good heads up on that.
Nicole Moore:
I think that the same advice would go. You know, I think that's an important thing to remind adoptive parents that no matter what area you choose to adopt from, you’ve got to do your research, first and foremost, on how to choose a reputable agency or attorney to answer your questions. And that's why people like Nicole exist to do that research for adoptive families, so that lawyers like myself and Susan won't have to get involved once an adoption is done wrong.
Nicole Witt:
Right. Right.
I actually brought to mind a couple of other questions circling back to the topic of openness. And Nicole, with foster adoption, I guess depending on the age at which the child was placed into foster care, they may have memories, strong memories, and attachment to their birth family. So, do you see those children tending to seek out their birth families when they're older, more often or same as children who were placed as infants? Do you really see any trend there?
Nicole Moore:
Well, I don't have statistical information regarding the children that are adopted through the state system, because my practice centered around domestic and my specialty is intervention of getting these children adopted out of the foster care system and {indistinct 34:33} done privately. And so, there is a different age range for that.
I think across the board, these adoptees do want to understand their Chapter One. So, regardless of their age, unless they are in the system when they're much older, if there is a missing Chapter One, it is very common for them to want to know who they came from and how their story began.
I think the older children that often get stuck in foster care have experienced a good amount of trauma that they might not be interested in a relationship with the parents that either neglected or abandoned them, as much as children that are adopted at a younger age before the possibility of abuse can even occur.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Makes sense. Makes sense.
And Susan, with international, my understanding is that some countries, possibly South Korea, they make extensive use of foster families prior to adoption. Is that correct and is that connection sometimes maintained as opposed to with birth families?
Susan:
So, that's an interesting question, Nicole, because sometimes what happens in intercountry adoption world is that agencies in the United States work with agencies in other countries to have hosting programs where older children in those foreign countries will come to the United States for a summer, for Christmas vacation, as a cultural exchange experience.
And during the time frame that they're here, a family may get to know them from hosting that or from being friends with the family that hosted them and develop an affinity and a relationship with that child. And then later, based on that relationship, then start the intercountry adoption process.
Now, the hosting programs are not deregulated to the same extent that intercountry adoption programs per sé are regulated. But that's where the trend is moving toward now.
One thing that also happens with intercountry adoptions is that the countries of origin often have requirements for the families to come and have a period of time within the foreign country where they meet the child and get acclimated to the child and spend some time in the child's home country to learn about the child and their culture. It's possible that during that time frame, an adoption could disrupt, meaning that could not go forward from that point forward.
But usually once the parents have committed that far along, they're going to go to the country, learn about the culture and customs, and it is going to go forward.
One of the things that does happen is that adoptive parents will take their children when they're older, back to their country of origin on a cultural heritage tour.
So, like Nicole said, children are going to have different degrees of wanting to understand their story and their background. Oftentimes, families in the United States form relationships with other families who have also adopted children from that same country of origin. And they will establish communities here that help foster the culture, traditions, language of the child's country of origin and find great strength in building communities here in the United States with the diaspora of children who are here from another country.
And what you may be referring to is there was a big event around the Korean children who were adopted years ago who have now reached adulthood, who have decided that they would like to reclaim their heritage. And a lot of them have actually moved back to Korea, grateful for the experiences that they had, having been adopted by American families, but wanting to renew their ties to their country of origin.
And, you know, the process in intercountry adoption has come under suspicion sometimes because sometimes there are bad actors who practice in a way that wasn't ethical toward the families that were placing their children for adoptions. Those are the types of things that make the news that aren't the norm of what goes on in the intercountry adoption case. But unfortunately, the whole rest of the intercountry adoption world suffers whenever there's a bad actor and something hits the media.
Nicole Witt:
Right. Right. That's for sure. As I think applies across all adoptions for sure.
Okay. So, shifting gears. Here's a big one; cost. So, with foster adoption, my understanding is that there's no cost or virtually no cost. Is that correct, Nicole?
Nicole Moore:
That is correct with your traditional foster adoption. If you're talking about adopting a foster {indistinct 40:07} intervention, those would match your normal fees that you would see at a private agency or entity adoption.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay.
And what I'm seeing with those, a lot of times these days, is that can go anywhere from about thirty thousand to about fifty thousand. And of course, there are a lot of different factors that can drive those costs and there are ways to adopt a bit less expensively than that.
Is that about the same for intercountry, Susan, or do you have travel and in-country stay on top of that, or is that kind of wrapped up in there?
Susan:
You're absolutely right, Nicole. So, you're going to be dealing with the same types of program fees. But in addition to that, you're going to have the travel costs of one or two trips to the foreign country. That's going to be airfare. That's going to be lodging. That's going to be an extended stay. But while you're there, there may even include a second trip back.
And if the US family has three or four or five members in it, you're going to multiply that cost by wanting the entire family to be there throughout that process.
So, in general, you're going to need to add the fees for in-country visits and travel. And in addition to that, you're going to have to add the immigration fees that can pile up with the filing of the forms that have to be filed through USCIS.
Nicole Witt:
Gotcha. Okay. Okay.
And how about the predictability of the cost? So, like I kind of alluded to with private domestic adoption, it's very case specific. And like we’d mentioned a few minutes ago, you never know when you're going to match or how far along in the pregnancy and expected mom will be at the time of your match. And of course, different agencies have different policies about what parts of the fees are due when. So, it is quite unpredictable.
With international adoption and foster adoption, are those fees a little bit more planned out? Are they a little bit more predictable at the beginning of the process?
Nicole Moore:
Well, again, foster traditional adoption would be free. And I would say adoption through intervention would be very predictable in that we would go {indistinct 42:29 – 30} is both birth parents consenting, there’s only one, do we know where the birth father is or birth mother, we’d have to do a diligent search or even publish.
So, in those cases, because there's an existing court case, we actually know a lot of the fact up front and it's much easier to get {indistinct 42:55} to handle accordingly.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay. And Susan?
Susan:
Yeah, the same would be true about an intercountry adoption. Under federal regulations, agencies who offer intercountry adoption services are required to give detailed disclosures prior to a family signing on to their program. Those fees are going to be fixed. They're going to be set. And any changes to those fees are going to have to be approved in advance. And there are less surprises that can happen because the same type of regulation that is happening on the US side, especially in a Hague Convention country, are going to be happening on the other side. So, folks are going to know their costs ahead of time going in.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay.
Now, talking about transracial adoption; that carries with it a lot of responsibility for one's own education about the child's race. Susan, you're already talking about people maybe going and staying in the country to learn about the culture and so on.
We're not going to dig too much into the education that the adoptive parents should put themselves through today. But speaking very generally, more people tend to adopt transracially when they're adopting internationally than domestically. So, I assume that that's a factor to be very cognizant of. Is that also true with adoption from foster care, Nicole?
Nicole Moore:
Yes, I think that they are given the upfront education when adopting from foster care. That includes transracial education; like what you're talking about. And I think although they have extra educational requirements than we would normally see in private domestic adoption, the interventions, those parents that are eligible to accept a matched case via intervention already have a home study that's approved. And so they also have received their education regarding adoption prior to the match.
Nicole Witt:
Okay.
And is there anything you want to add to that, Susan, related to international that you didn't touch on already?
Susan:
No.
Nicole Witt:
No. Okay.
So, I know you've mentioned sibling groups as well. And a lot of potential clients that I’d talked to are interested in adopting a sibling group. With private domestic option, that's extremely rare unless the potential birth mom happens to be expecting twins. How common are sibling groups when one is adopting from foster care, Nicole?
Nicole Moore:
If a family does want to adopt a sibling group, foster care is the way to go. Unfortunately, if one child is being neglected or abused, so are the siblings. And so, often we see them removed as a group.
I think the goal in every situation, regardless of what type of adoption, would be to keep sibling groups together. I do know that it's harder to place a foster sibling group. And often, I do see the state after trying for some time and not being successful to separate a sibling group.
Nicole Witt:
Okay.
Nicole Moore:
So, that means that there is a need for parents that are willing to take on a sibling group via foster adoption, that would be where you would want to look.
I have been honored to do sibling adoption intervention when two or more children were removed. And there are people on private adoption waiting lists that are also open to receiving two or more children. But like you said, that's very rare if not through an intervention mechanism.
Nicole Witt:
Okay.
And is it common with international adoption, Susan? My understanding is at one point, people could adopt two unrelated children at the same time from Russia. Is that the case with any countries that are open now?
Susan:
I'm not aware, Nicole, being able to adopt unrelated children at the same time, because generally the best practices would hold that the first child needs to come into the family, be accepted and acclimated before another child would come into the family. So, ordinarily, I think the rule of thumb, at least domestically, is that you want to wait a year before bringing an unrelated child in.
And oftentimes, in intercountry adoption, sibling sets are available for adoption. And it's a very excellent option if a family is open to bringing the sibling set in together.
Nicole Witt:
Okay.
Susan:
Of course, the costs are not going to double or triple exponentially because some of the fees would be reduced because an additional sibling was going to be adopted.
Nicole Witt:
Okay, that's an important point.
Susan:
Definitely the cost of three {crosstalk 48:24} adoptions.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay.
And one area where the three types of adoption all differ significantly is the process. And we've already alluded to this a bit. But the process by which the adoptive parents match with an expectant mom or with the child.
With private domestic adoption, the expectant mom or the expectant parents select the adoptive parents from a profile that they create. It's kind of like a scrapbook that shows the expectant mom, who they are, and what the baby's life would be like with them.
Some people like having that influence in the process and they like that it tends to lead to a match that has more of a personal connection. Other people don't like that approach as much. They feel like they're sort of trying to sell themselves a little bit.
For international, Susan, it's often a traditional waiting list method that's employed. Is that correct? Can you expand on that?
Susan:
So, often the children that become available for intercountry adoption become available in the country of origin. And it's the country of origin that can go through the list of available families, not just from the agency that the families work with (Let's say it was a Florida family) but from the agencies that are working with families from all over the country.
I can't tell you the process that each individual country goes through in order to do that match, but it's going to be based on a criteria that is a double match. So, for example, the country of origin is going to look at the profiles or the data on the families that are all available with whom to place a child and decide which family would be the best match. But the birth parents in those countries are not generally given information on the family and then having a say in which family they would like.
Nicole Witt:
Right.
Susan:
It's all done by the authorities or the agencies in the country. So, the United States is a lot more individual rights oriented than a lot of these countries. And so therefore, parents who are making an adoption plan have the choice, if they're going through a private agency or an attorney, to pick which family they would like. That concept is not really one that's recognized in most other countries.
Nicole Witt:
Okay, interesting. Okay.
And then Nicole, with foster adoption, you mentioned the committee making those decisions. Is there anything else you want to add to that?
Nicole Moore:
So, someone is interested in foster care adoption would need to get their 10 weeks of training in their home study done. And then the {indistinct 51:22} that are available for adoption are then put on the state website with an I'd number. And the prospective adoptive family can review the children, their ages, and their general backgrounds and needs and reach out to the caseworker based on the child that they think would do well in their home. And at that time {indistinct 51:49} could go through the adoption committee to see if it's a good match.
So, it's kind of the opposite of what we’d see in private adoption, where birth parents are handpicking the adoptive parents. We have adoptive parents reaching out based on the adoptee and who they think would be a good match.
Now, if we're talking about adopting via intervention, then typically those matches are in the same way as you would any waitlist for a private entity. When a child is in need and needs to be matched, we could look at the waiting families that are open to intervention or older children and we would match accordingly.
Nicole Witt:
Okay. Okay, great.
So, the last topic I want to touch on; it's sort of sort of an umbrella topic. It encompasses a few different things. And those are the things that convince every adoptive parent that they'll never be able to adopt. Everyone has something that they're sure will hold them back. So, let's just touch on a few of the most common ones.
Probably the biggest one is age. So, obviously, many people come to adoption, not always, but many after years of first trying to have a biological child. And then after that, they've spent a long time going through infertility treatments. So, it's just natural that they're a bit older and they're worried that due to their age, they'll never be able to adopt.
With domestic adoption, what I see is that most people who adopt are somewhere between the ages of 30 and 45. So, that's totally typical and tends to not be an issue.
For those who are older than that, it can take a bit longer to get selected by potential birth mom, but it's certainly not impossible, especially if they have flexibility in some of their various parameters about the opportunities that they're open to. I've certainly worked with a lot of families who are older than that successfully.
Can you speak to how the age of the adoptive parents might come into play with foster adoption, Nicole, and with international adoption, Susan?
Nicole Moore:
Sure.
In foster care adoption, we do not have an age cutoff. We require that you have an approved home study. So, somebody that might be what we consider older would need to have to have the medical approval that they are healthy and able to care for children. But as long as they have a positive home study, they can apply for adoption with state. Whereas through private adoptions, private agencies can make their own cutoff of age as to who they might allow to be on their wait list.
From a legal perspective, there's not a magic age where you cannot adopt anymore. It's going to just go to the fact of if you have an approved home study.
Nicole Witt:
Okay.
And then, Susan, a lot of countries, they have their own criteria related to age, is that correct?
Susan:
You're absolutely right, Nicole. So, from the US perspective, as Nicole mentioned, as long as you have a valid home study and have passed the medical tests and are eligible to adopt, there's no magic cutoff number.
Some countries have a lot more restrictions. For example, some countries will not allow single people to adopt. Other countries may allow a single woman to adopt, but not a single man. Some countries require that the child's parents, prospective parents be at the same cultural heritage of that country or at least one member of the couple. Some countries, believe it or not, have BMI weight requirements for adoptive parents. So, obese parents can't adopt.
Some countries do it a little bit differently age wise. And what they what they do is they say that there can be no more than 25 years of difference between the child and the prospective adoptive parent. So, that's going to be a sliding scale or there has to be at least 25 years of difference between them.
So, if you have an adoptive parent who's adopting an older child, if the 10-year old is available for adoption, you can have an older parent because it's going to slide with the age of the child.
Nicole Witt:
Right. Okay.
And you touched on the topic of marital status. That's another big one, right? Single people worry that they just can't adopt. And yes, just as with older people, it can be harder to get selected. But also, like with older people, it's certainly not impossible. Again, if they have flexibility elsewhere, that makes it easier.
So, I work with singles all the time who adopt successfully. And you just touched on that, Suzanne as it relates to international. Does that really come into play for foster adoption, Nicole?
Nicole Moore:
Yes.
So, there's a lot of people that choose not to get married and would want to adopt as a single parent and they are eligible to do so via foster care, as are LGBT families. I do know the requirement for foster care is however that they are married. So, a same sex couple could adopt together as long as they were married.
Nicole Witt:
Okay, which is actually my –
Susan:
I'd like to add to that.
Nicole Witt:
Okay, sure.
Susan:
So, I always tell my families, “If you want to adopt, you will adopt. The only reason you're going to probably not end up adopting is because you take yourself out of the race.” So, you may be older, you may be single, you may be a variety of things where you come in with this fear, like you said, that no one's going to pick you or you're not going to be selected or you're never going to make the dream happen to become a parent. And I say, if you want it, it'll happen. You just may need to stick in there a little bit longer.
Most people that I know who {indistinct 58:20} adopting end up not adopting because they take themselves out of the process.
Nicole Witt:
That's a great point. A great summary of it and certainly important for people to hear.
So, I just want to circle back to one of Nicole's comments and LGBTQ families, but I think that's a great thought, Susan, on which to wrap things up.
And, you know, it used to be extremely difficult for the LGBTQ families to adopt, at least domestically, both because of the various state laws and because at the time most potential birth moms were looking for traditional families.
Fortunately, I've seen both of those things change over the years, and I find that LGBTQ families do very well with domestic adoption. So, that's good to know that that's been embraced in the foster system as well.
But, Susan, I think your point was a great one to kind of close on today. We've covered a lot of ground and I feel like we were still just scratching the surface. With each of these topics that we covered, there's a lot to think about. But hopefully, listener, you leave with more information than you arrived with and you're starting to have a good sense of what type of adoption is the right one for your family. I greatly appreciate you spending your time with us today.
So, to wrap up, I would like to once again thank my guests, Nicole Moore, Board Certified Adoption Attorney with The Law Offices of Jeanne Tate. You can reach her at nicole(N-I-C-O-L-E)@jtatelaw.com. That's J-T-A-T-E-L-A-W.com nicole@jtatelaw.com or at 407-898-8015.
And Susan Meisel Levin, who's Owner/Principal at Susan Meisel Levin, a boutique law practice in Miami, Florida, and her website is adoptionlawsml (as in Susan Meisel Levin) adoptionlawsml.com
And most of all, thank you listeners. Please take care of yourselves and stay well.